【フルインタビュー】都会を離れ、古民家でパンを焼く夫婦の“想い”とは？｜丹波篠山市「ORGANIC なりとぱん」

【フルインタビュー】都会を離れ、古民家でパンを焼く夫婦の“想い”とは？｜丹波篠山市「ORGANIC なりとぱん」

I believe the human body
is made from what we eat. So when we take in things that bring joy
to the body, the mind starts to feel joy as well. Full-length interview with Narito Ise,
owner of “ORGANIC Naritopan” I run a bakery in Fukusumi,
Tamba Sasayama City. I’m Narito Ise from “Naritopan.” I’m Chikako Ise. Nice to meet you. We were in a town called Uehonmachi in Osaka. At that time, it wasn’t a café—
just a bakery we ran for 13 years. Then we moved here to Tamba Sasayama, and started running a café as well. When I was baking bread in Osaka, I used natural yeast and domestic wheat. After moving here, I still use domestic wheat, though I now also use foreign wheat. I purchase pesticide-free whole wheat grain and grind it myself on a millstone
to make bread. I’ve switched to making the bread
with natural yeast using this method. I just kept trying and failing
over and over again. When I make bread, I always start by
imagining the kind of bread I want to eat. Then I just try to bring that idea to life. Usually after one or two tries— sometimes 10, 20, even 100 times—
I keep making it until I get close to what I imagined. As long as the image is clear in my mind, I believe there’s nothing I can’t make—
that’s what I’ve always thought. So with this bread,
I wasn’t really thinking too deeply, but the people around me, including family, were probably quite anxious,
wondering when I’d finish it. But in Chikako’s case,
she didn’t seem anxious at all. She probably thought,
“Well, he’ll make it eventually.” Though maybe she was thinking,
“Just hurry up already.” I was really desperate to make it work
this time around, and it took about four and a half years. With regular white bread,
the gluten gives it a nice pull, so you can make it rise
without too much effort. But with domestic wheat,
and on top of that, whole wheat, it just doesn’t rise well—
it’s like a rice cracker. The bread just flattened out completely. Even when the result came out like that, I’d say, “Next time will go well.” “Next time will go well,”
I always had that strange confidence. People probably thought,
“There he goes again.” Director）In this industry,
would you call that a reckless challenge? Yes, I think so.
Most people wouldn’t try it. No matter how much I thought about it
or how hard I tried, I couldn’t do it. So I decided to forget everything
I had done so far. I let go of all the experience
I had gained in over 30 years of baking before coming here. So when I made it, I thought,
“If it’s going to fail anyway, whatever.” I didn’t use a scale or a thermometer— I decided to rely purely on my senses. And this is what I ended up with. Since I didn’t use a scale,
I just threw in the flour randomly. So the next time,
I had no idea how much I had used. But by repeating it over and over,
my body started to memorize it. Once I remembered it, then I measured. And when I thought, “Yeah, this is it,”
this bread was what came out. Still, I couldn’t let go
of my old habits completely. When I tried adjusting my past recipes a little,
it didn’t work at all. So at that point, I thought— “How much dough should I make today?”
Then I just measured the flour randomly. “How much water should I add?”
And I added salt and sugar by feel. I just kept touching the dough
and tasting it again and again. Then— the dough just started to speak to me. Like it was saying,
“Now’s the time”—I could feel it. The expression of the dough would change. The dough started to look really cute to me. Even so, when I baked it,
it still sometimes went flat. But I was like, “No, this feeling will
definitely work next time.” I kept repeating that process
for four and a half years. Eventually, it started to rise. And I knew, “This is it.”
That’s how it came together. That’s pretty much how I always make things. All the ingredients I use
are organic. The wheat I use is grown here
in Hyogo Prefecture. The farmer who grows it
is also extremely particular. He’s incredibly kind and warmhearted. I actually really look forward
to going and getting the wheat from him. We chat for a bit, and after that— I feel like I can keep going. Then there’s coconut oil. Thanks to finding that,
I was finally able to complete the bread. Also, organic coconut sugar. And organic cane sugar. I also use Kanhoa salt. As for the yeast, I use raisins now. I always use organic Sultana raisins. People often tell me the bread
goes well with Japanese food. When they ask me why that is— I honestly don’t really know. Even back in Osaka, when I had the bakery— people would say,
“Your bread goes well with Japanese meals.” “Even with miso soup,” they’d say. I still don’t really know why that is. I just put kinpira (stir-fried burdock)
in the bread and eat it like that. Maybe bread just goes well
with almost anything. Why do I make everything by hand?
People ask me that— It’s simply because I love making things.
That’s all there is to it. Even when I’m boiling red beans— they slowly start to change, right? These rock-hard beans,
once they’re done— they become sweet and incredibly delicious. Watching that transformation is fun,
so I keep making things. Why do I use organic ingredients? Because I kept choosing what tasted best,
and that’s where it led me. As I chose those things,
my body naturally felt better— It’s not like I did it to get healthier. Even when I first started my own bakery— I used natural yeast and domestic wheat. When I started in Osaka
about 20 years ago, People around me said domestic wheat
was bad and wouldn’t rise. And that there’s no way
you could make bread with natural yeast. They’d say things like,
“That kind of bread won’t last 3 months.” But in my mind,
I only had the image of success. In the first couple of months— Actually, for about 3 years… Mrs.Chikako）We didn’t have many customers
for about 3 years. Narito Chef）Even then I thought,
“They’ll get it once they taste it.” So I didn’t go out of my way
to advertise that it was natural yeast. I wrote it down small,
but never really promoted it. The customers that did come
were often interesting people. Some people who just happened to buy bread
would rush back saying— “What’s in this bread?
Why is it so good!?” There were a few people like that,
and I thought, “This will catch on fast.” But it still took 3 years. Then we got featured in a magazine
called “Amakara Techo.” The editors there really loved our bread. They even put Naritopan’s bread
on the front cover. That raised our profile overnight. It sparked interest from all over— Even places that had ignored us
started reaching out. Things got really busy after that. Why did I switch to domestic wheat? When I was using foreign wheat, I had terrible skin irritation
and developed asthma. A senior at the bakery where I worked said— “Maybe it’s because of post-harvest chemicals?” But at the time,
I had no idea what that meant. I was like, “What even is post-harvest?” When I opened my own shop,
I decided to stop using foreign wheat— and try domestic wheat instead. So I started with domestic wheat
and natural yeast. It wasn’t about health or anything like that. I just started using domestic wheat. Then, in just two months,
my skin and asthma completely cleared up. I’ve had no issues at all since then. That’s when I thought,
“There really is something in foreign wheat.” Some people react,
and some people don’t. But in my case,
I must have been reacting very strongly. While doing all that, more and more health-conscious customers
started coming to the shop. Just because we used domestic wheat
and natural yeast— Back then, I still smoked cigarettes and on my days off I’d happily eat
convenience store food full of additives. Mrs.Chikako）Even though he made healthy bread,
he’d still happily choose that stuff on his days off. Narito Chef）I still liked my own bread best,
of course— but I liked that other bread too. That’s just how I was. The first ones who taught me things
were the folks at “Magnum Coffee.” Then some people involved in natural foods
gradually taught me more. I’d be like, “Really?” But I still thought,
“If the government’s selling it, or if companies are making and selling it,
it can’t be that bad.” That’s honestly what I believed. They’d say, “Well, some people are fine with it,
but when it builds up over time…” Even while hearing that, I kept eating that kind of food. But little by little I thought,
“Maybe I’ll leave that out of the stuff I make.” As I switched to better ingredients— I realized it actually tasted better. That flipped a switch in me,
and I started seeking better-tasting things. When I compared food with additives
and food without— we just naturally preferred
the ones without additives. So we started choosing those kinds of foods. As we kept switching to better ingredients— our bodies felt lighter and healthier. In over 50 years of living,
I feel like my body moves best now. I just feel so physically at ease. Until now, I had always lived
with that old eating lifestyle. That was just normal to me. So I never even realized
that feeling tired was being tired. In my case, I stopped eating eggs— and drastically reduced the sugar
I had always consumed so much of. Then my body felt incredibly light— and I was finally able to sleep soundly at night. It really depends on the person—
what works or doesn’t. In my case, eggs were the problem. And in Chikako’s case,
dairy products didn’t agree with her. So since neither of us could eat those,
we decided to cut them both out— and make bread we could eat.
That’s how this bread came to be. And when your body feels better—
you simply stop choosing those things. But if I really wanted to eat them— Even if I broke out in hives,
I’d still eat it. That’s how I see it. I think the worst thing is
trying to hold back or endure. If you want to eat something
but feel like you can’t— that stress is probably
the most unhealthy part. Even if it makes you sick— if you got sick from eating
something you really love, isn’t that worth it? Mrs.Chikako）If you’re eating what you love,
maybe you won’t even get sick at all. Narito Chef）When you’re laughing and enjoying your food— Mrs.Chikako）We just don’t like certain things,
so we simply choose not to eat them. Narito Chef）So if someone loves those foods,
I think that’s perfectly fine. Director）So you two were able to make
bread you genuinely find delicious. Mrs.Chikako）Yes, it really felt like, “We did it.” Mrs.Chikako）We had a clear image of what we wanted. Narito Chef）It just took a bit of time, that’s all. Mrs.Chikako）My body is really sensitive and reacts honestly— so I’m particular about avoiding pesticides and additives. I always make sure to choose things
that don’t contain those. And when I find something without them,
it brings me joy. I try to only choose products
completely free of those things. Otherwise— my body reacts right away to those ingredients. It makes me feel unwell. My gut starts to hurt,
and I get an upset stomach quickly. When I think about that discomfort— I just choose foods
that I know I can safely eat. And of course, things that look delicious to me. When I do that,
I’ll look at a package and think, “This might be okay.” Then when I try it, it usually turns out to be fine.
That’s been happening more and more lately. What we’re doing is really just choosing— We’re simply having fun with our choices. Narito Chef）Something we often say is— We want to support the people
and things we hope will remain in the future. There’s only so much we can consume, right? So we want to spend all our money
supporting the farmers and companies we believe in. If those products get passed on
to the next generation and their kids— we believe the world will become
a better place. That’s how we choose. So it’s different from thinking,
“I’ll choose this because it makes me healthier.” We know there’s only so much we can do—
just small things. But if everyone starts thinking that way,
the world will improve. Mrs.Chikako）Our way of thinking is really simple. Narito Chef）We’re not thinking about anything complex. We don’t really understand complicated things anyway. We just want the people we love and admire to keep thriving. We just hope the world becomes
a place like that. But of course, everyone has their own way. Mrs.Chikako）For us,
that hope is the strongest motivation. That’s why we stay true to it. Narito Chef）When we really connect with someone— we can feel the intention behind what they sell. Looking at their packaging, ingredients,
and how it’s made— you can tell if they’re just trying to make
a ton of money, or if they’re truly creating something
with good intentions. We can’t help but sense that difference. Attachment and fear— if you let go of those
and just observe things— you can probably reach a place
that feels good without too much confusion. When I start overthinking— like “What about the bills?” or
“What if no one comes tomorrow?” I do get scared sometimes. But my wife Chika-chan
never worries about those things at all. She just says, “It’ll work out.” And then I think,
“Yeah, it’ll work out,” and feel better. And that’s enough. That’s how we’ve made it through
the past five years. Mrs.Chikako）The secret to a happy marriage
is that we talk all the time. We say everything we’re thinking. Narito Chef）We don’t hold back. Especially Chika-chan—she tells me things directly. She says things clearly. Like, “Your posture’s bad,” or
“Your neck’s sticking out.” Narito Chef）“Your hair’s too long, go get it cut.”
Mrs.Chikako）“When are you getting a haircut?” and so on. Because we say what we think,
I think that’s why we get along. Narito Chef）Even if we fight, that’s fine.
Mrs.Chikako）Yeah, I think it’s okay to argue. Narito Chef）When we fight,
we better understand what the other is thinking. Then we can think about it
and become a better “us” afterward. Narito Chef）We’re together all the time—
almost all 24 hours of the day. Narito Chef）We’re together more than 20 hours a day.
Mrs.Chikako）We go everywhere together. Because I can’t drive,
so he takes me shopping and wherever I need to go. Narito Chef）We’re always together.
Mrs.Chikako）It’s just normal for us. Narito Chef）The only thing I go to alone is sanshin class.
Mrs.Chikako）He only goes to sanshin class by himself. Mrs.Chikako）Other than that, we’re always together.
Narito Chef）Always together. Mrs.Chikako）We absolutely don’t keep secrets from each other.
Narito Chef）Exactly. Narito Chef）I mean, I can’t hide anything—
she finds out everything anyway. Director）You both look so young. Director）Do you think it’s because of your diet?
Narito Chef）I think so. Our bodies are made from what we eat. Our cells are built from the food we consume. So we simply become
what we eat. Looking young probably means that the food we eat
has those kinds of qualities. If you consume a lot of additives,
your body gets cold easily. That worsens your blood circulation. Poor blood circulation accelerates aging. I think it’s really that simple. But if someone is emotionally joyful
and truly happy— they also appear youthful, I believe. Director）So your mindset is important too?
Mrs.Chikako）Yes, I believe it is. I try not to think
too negatively. Narito Chef）And I believe that mindset is ultimately shaped by food too. Mrs.Chikako）Like our thoughts and our gut…
Narito Chef）Our blood, our brains—everything is built from food. Food is what makes all of it. When we consume things that make the body happy,
our spirit becomes joyful too. People often say
we are made of body, mind, and soul. Our mind and body are deeply influenced
by what surrounds us. When the body improves by taking in good things,
the mind improves too. When the mind deteriorates,
the body follows. I think they’re connected that way. When we die, we return to the heavens
and only the soul remains. So there’s really no need to be afraid
or overly concerned. Just do what you love—
that’s how I feel. Why do I feel that way? It’s not like I always thought this way. It’s only after moving here to Tamba Sasayama
that my mindset started to change. Why that is—
even I don’t know yet. But something about this town,
its natural vibe—maybe that’s what changed me. The atmosphere here, or maybe the people—
I don’t know what the cause is. But I’ve come to truly see
what I love. When I came here from the city— just looking at the starry sky at night
felt amazing. That kind of feeling
is everywhere around here. So maybe that’s how
my spirit began to change. Director）We’ve really been uplifted
by this interview too. Director）Thank you very much.
Both）Thank you as well.

フル動画はこちら👉 https://youtu.be/NiwpI-UOKZE

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