The term “ORIENTAL” in perfumery is CANCELLED! Here are some alternative terms we could use! I hope you enjoy it.
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41 Comments
Censorship even in perfume language. That's absurd and crazy… I am a free person and I will keep my love for the art of perfume alive… Dacob just a quick question .. in retrospect do you think that dolce and Gabbana red cap new version is worth trying and owing?? Compared to the glorious vintage version?? Speaking of gigantic floral orientals. . Red cap is one..I hope the new version is not Canceling the vintage vision of that enormous perfume..
These “issues” are more about the gray areas and the way some people “feel” about it, which might not be necessarily driven by a rightful cause but more about creating chaos and disruption. These people aren’t driven by love,
Why would fragrances use “racial slurs” to promote their perfumes? They know better. It’s like canceling the word “black” because of how some people feel about it… under that premise, “blackmail” and “blacklist” are additional words that should be banned and canceled. It’s just absurd.
work it, American Life (2003)!
At this point.. society is so uninspired that it will all be bland because we have to accommodate to the extremely and unjustifiably sensitive minds.
My first language is Spanish and we use that term as well, oriente and poniente with reference as geographical location and the sun.
That last minute is the key to this topic! Loved it. It’s what drives this conversation. Thank you, Dacob!
Byzantine hit it, I felt that in my body. And I'd love to expand upon the art historical classifications, what richness!!! She did a really good job in naming that!!
Like what might a pop art Fragrance smell like?; in intention of movement or the color rich yet reductive signifier of change. Not in reference to the 60s but intention of the movement itself. I want to smell pop art. The top floor niche section of a museum inspired by what is yet to come. It smells of food truck, out to lunch, fresh conversation, and keeping shit fun lol, yaaasss.
You keep my creative writing gears turning, I LOVE tuning in!!
The word oriental gives fragrance a mystical prestige. So when they are identified and labelled with the identification of being oriental they sell and make their creator's very rich.
FLEUREONTINE🤣
Imperial comes to mind. Dynasty-if we can hear and and think beyond Joan/Alexis. We NEED the categories, and oriental was one, along with gourmand, fruity, floral, fresh etc.
Beautiful topic… I was thinking why not use styles from the architecture…. We do have them in music… Literature… Paintings… Like Baroque style.. We know that geographically started in Europe in the beginning of the 17th century… So… In this case similar to this… Even though oriental, in terms of architecture leads directly to Far East Asia… And the types of crafts and architecture related to Chinese culture. A topic under construction 🤗😁😘
So we’re not allowed to use the word “oriental” yet we can call everything Western “Western”. Western culture, Western countries, the West… it is just as big a generalisation as Eastern/Oriental. Orient means East and Occident means West. As simple as that. People who tell you otherwise clearly have double standards.
I will personally continue calling oriental perfumes oriental because the word expresses a particular style of perfumery. And anyone who has tried the true Arabian and Middle Eastern perfumes will tell you that they’re absolutely gorgeous: oud, vanilla, saffron, rose… opulence! Why shouldn’t the western perfume houses be inspired by this gorgeous genre of perfumes? There is nothing wrong with artistic inspiration. All the perfumes that we consider timeless classics and the best perfumes of all time are “oriental”: Guerlain Shalimar, Samsara, Chanel Coco, YSL Opium…
** I watch some perfume reviewers who have stopped using the word oriental and use Middle Eastern instead. I don’t see the point in this because we all know they mean oriental.
The problem runs far deeper. What I unfortunately do not see addressed in these debates is the root cause of the problem about orientalism, which is the stealing of oriental culture and wrapping it in „white imperialist culture“.
The core problem about orientalism in art and therefore the word „oriental“ is that it entails in many instances – „we want your culture but we don’t want your people“. There would be nothing wrong about the word oriental if we would see oriental people, oriental brands and countries deeply involved in the manufacturing and presentation of these perfumes. But they are not. We see primarily white brands using the word and producing these perfumes. (I know of course there are exceptions but few) Where are the brands from India, from Iran, from Palestine, from Syria? Is it not weird when we start to think about that. They do not exist because there was and still is (economical) imperialism and colonialism going today and was going on for so many centuries. That there are primarily French, American and British labels on the selves reflects the imperialism these countries have indulged themselves in. Why do white people think they have a better understanding of the orient than the people coming from those regions? Or am I wrong and they have hired art directors from those regions in creating these perfumes? (I would highly hope so but I fear they have not). It is stealing of culture, as these countries do not have the possibility of self-expression and creation due to their weak economy and political basis which is primarily a fault of the west.
I will repeat – where are the brands from oriental countries? With most resources coming from these countries?? That is the core problem, it is not a debate about political correctness, categories and wording – it is why in the 21 century we only have white brands making „oriental“ art. The answer to this is simple: we want your culture but not your people.
That is the problem about the word „oriental“ and why it is questionable to use it. So it runs deep into politics, history and economy. I hope nobody feels offended what I was just describing, I just think it is important to raise awareness about the actual cause.
Loved the videos though, I hope we find a better word, thank you Dacob for the important topic, love you xoxo
I love the name Shalimar as a new name for the category! "Oriental" in perfume had the same feeling as oriental rug. There is something nostalgic about the word. As a perfume category it was a romanticized vision of far away places and ingredients. It is okay to have romantic notions and words in art.
I use the term amber to not offend anyone, but I agree, it falls short. A traditional oriental perfume has a citrus top, floral heart, and amber base.
And we need structure in language and art. Structure helps us critique. It gives us something to aim for or rebel against.
I love Hermes Ambre Narguile, it smells of warm amber spices at markets. 🧡 change the word but to what… 🤔 thanks for sharing my love. 🙏🏼❤️😘😘😘Sandy
I always understood "Oriental" to explain exotic and deep rich notes, florally and a touch dark spice.
Nothing wrong with using the word in reference to objects or fragrance….just not people. For example, if you tell me I’m oriental I’ll tell you I’m not a rug. Just my opinny.
Intent has everything to do with it. I will continue to identify my Shalimar as an Oriental fragrance. Truly inspired by the beauty of the East. Never bow down to the mob. They are insatiable.
shalimar family – yesss
What will be the next step, ban Chypre because it could offend the citizens of Cyprus?……. My goodness…. Keep your energy for real concerns. Oriental in perfume industry never was something negative. Take it as a compliment.
Oriental is an entire area, so I think people get grumpy becasue it just clumps everyone in one term. I am south east Asian American, I don't have an issue and I don't think is derogatory at all.
Unrelated to this video (which is very interesting btw), please review Escape by Calvin Klein! Such a complex mythical beast! 😘
To me its just a descriptive term that refers to things generally from the eastern hemisphere, as opposed to from the western hemisphere, or occidental. So for fragrance, it refers to fragrances that use ingredients from or more often found in the eastern hemisphere, like many resins. It has an exotic connotation to westerners, in the same way that things from the west often have an exotic connotation to easterners
Edit: Haha! You ended up saying exactly what I said!
Thank you for your effort to find a replacement term for Oriental, Dacob. You are very kind and caring, while wanting to preserve the utility of the categories. And I love how you describe and review perfumes–the longer the better! The objection to the term 'Oriental' probably reflects an objection to Western imperialism, correct? If we are clear on our history, we are not afraid of these contexts, because as we evolve so do our perspectives. Changing a word does not change how much we know; for that, we must take time to read and study. Many who have no idea why they argue will argue over what is the 'correct' term, and no real wisdom will have been gained. From the perspective of etymology (history of words), others prefer to have these clues left in our language, clues to our past, be it proud or shameful or both. Peace to you all, whatever you decide. <3
No. It's not cancelled.
It's not negative or offensive.
This word is firmly planted in the world of design, art , architecture, interior design, fabrics, perfumes….
Snowflakery won't change this. Please educate yourself (anyone that listens to ignorance and spews talking points)
Quite embarrassing.
👁
As a white European I know that this is not my place to speak but I didn't even know that word "oriental" is considered a slur/offensive. Maybe it's because English is not my first language but oriental had always positive connotation to me – far away magical land etc. But yeah, we live and learn. So I think I'm gonna do some reading on this one.
I think we have to leave the terms as they are and let it to be history of perfumery. It is interesting to know why this or another family named in such way and not in another. Thank you, Dacob, for this video, it's really a sharp edge.
The term “Oriental” isn’t a slur….
Calling Asians “Oriental” IS a slur.
Oriental has always been used as a term to describe products (furnishings, perfumes, textiles, etc.)
Calling PEOPLE “Oriental” was what is technically inappropriate.
The extremely misguided wokeness is getting stupid.
Just my two cents, but I love the idea of the category being changed to Byzantine or Baroque. They both are descriptive and romantic. It also draws on a whole rich visual tradition. However, it might be too esoteric so amber might work better. Although, I agree it's too reductive/too based on a specific ingredient.
Oriental is not a slur. Period.
This is ridiculous sorry! Obviously we don’t call PEOPLE Oriental…. Because it is used for “goods” like rugs and perfumes. People have too much time on their hands. This is not a problem. Again we are talking about perfumes. I’m over these white woke gen Z’s deciding what is “appropriate.” they are the first to talk about cultural appropriation of clothing then you see videos of non ethnic people wearing ethnic outfits in those communities and the ethnic communities/elders COMPLIMENTING them. only the WOKE WHITE brainwashed are offended. PERIOD. Btw I am OF COLOR. And its the woke who tell ME when I should be offended.
Oriental should NEVER be used for people but it is PERFECTLY FINE for PERFUME!!! That is the point. Notice noone is offended until this woke wave. On my rant- look how they removed aunt Jemima and uncle ben…. So now NO black people on products…. Just celebrate Wendy, The KFC general etc… see the irony here? I don’t need some no-name 20 something liberal arts grad redefining and REIMAGINING history
Thanks foe these deep discussions. Orient is a beautiful word BtW. When you get rid of the word you erase it from HISTORY, rid of the CULTURE! You actually take credit away from those regions. Think of the spices and ingredients. Getting rid of ORIENT is WHITE WASHING!
"Orient" while sometimes meant in a complimentary or neutral way, still carries a lot of baggage, especially since "Occident" isn't used in the same way. We don't conventionally have an "Occidental" perfume category. There are "Western" perfumes, but they are allowed to be fresh, floral, fruity, woody, etc. However, "Eastern-influenced" perfumes are symbolically all lumped together in this one "mystical" category. And this leaks over into how people talk about actual Asians/Africans/Middle Easterners–as if we're homogenous, stuck in the past, not quite real, etc. It's the huge downside of being exoticized. A lot of the famous orientals were actually designed by Westerners–it's very much a European idea of what "Eastern lands" are like. At the same time, the perfume traditions of actual Eastern countries tend to be ignored. Can you find perfumes from brands like Rasasi or Simoy ng Haraya in a typical department store?
Perfume terminology might seem like a trivial thing to obsess about, but let's remember that Europeans' desire for easier access to spices was a major motivator in imperialism. It's sadly very easy to connect these things.
In short, being inspired by the East isn't quite the same as respecting people and cultures from the East. It's not so fun to have others play around with your culture and tell you who you are, but not listen when you want to represent yourself. I'm sure this isn't being done intentionally, but still using the word "Oriental" so unironically is part of a bigger tradition that lets "the West" set a lot of the cultural terms without listening to "the East."
Personally, I think we can split "oriental" into several categories, since there's so much internal variety. Some are ambery, some are spicy, etc. This would be a lot more informative than just using one word for all of them.
Would other commenters here be interested in learning more about brands from outside the West? We love perfume, too, and we also design our own.
F:)ck that. The day I pander to the Woke mob is the day I stop wearing oud oil & Resala.
It's "Oriental" .
I think I get it tho, and I'll tell you why. The more obvious thing of course is there is no such thing as "oriental", mainly because this term refers to more than one country and culture, and they have some great differences among themselves. We don't have a "occidental" category in perfumery because it would be crazy to try to create a line between all the different fragrances across the occident… Impossible. But even more than this, even taking into consideration the good intentions of people simply talking about perfumes, this term is deceiving. They are not "Oriental" they didn't come from the Orient!!!! They didn't came from India or the middle east. They are mainly an western vision of what the "orient" is. You know, spicy notes on fragrances like… As a person who truly loves middle eastern fragrances, indian fragrances you start to get a little bit of why people get not necessarily offended but a little bitter. It's because these places have their own fragrance culture. And it is beautiful. The Oud is the soul of the middle east, and trust me it has nothing to do with the oud notes here! It's intense, animalic, different from everything else. In India they have attar recipes that are tradicional, and have a beautiful story behind their creation. And they get reinvented again and again in the most beautiful forms. If you use an attar you see that it is a completely different experience from wearing perfume. One because they are oil based so they are body heat friendly, you can massage and put a little heat to get the fragrance going. The small crystal bottles wonderfully decorated. Watching the drop of attar fall on your skin from the glass dropper. It doesn't project a lot because it doesn't have the alcohol but this thing will stick to your skin until you shower. And I tried searching for some videos about it and I kept getting these videos talking about "oriental" in the eastern conception and I was furious because I couldn't find more content on TRULY "oriental" fragrances you see, that's why I love this. And I hope more people would be interested in finding out about middle eastern fragrances. I'm sure you'd be amazed Dacob!!
Wow Orwellian new speech has entered the room. By controlling words people assume they can control the human mind. I will still use it. What's the next word that get cancelled?
Oriental is a slur when you are talking about a person, not a thing. People are too sensitive about words. A word is just a word, people need to get out of their feels.
The orient was classified on the great silk road or trading stations for spices and silks through Asia, Africa and Arabic lands…all part of the orient. …I think spain and the Mediterranean fit in this too somewhere.